Does Religion Require Blind faith?
April 2, 2008 34 Comments
In the comment to a previous post (entitled: Is it “child abuse” for parents to teach their faith to their children?) a comment was made that is worthy of its own post.
Rodibidably said
All religion is based on blind faith, that is belief without evidence.
Let me say that I do not agree with his assessment. This type of broad based attack can’t be allowed to go unchallenged. Undoubtedly, there are some religions that might teach blind faith. I am sure that there are some Christians who are proponents and practitioners of blind faith. The real question is, though, is Christianity based on blind faith? I intend to limit my comments to Christianity.
Faith is defined as “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” in Hebrews 11:1. It is a major theme of the whole Bible but nowhere in the Bible are we told to have blind faith. We are told that faith is a gift from God. Ephesians 2:8-9 says “(8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” We are told that without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6 says “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” We are told that faith must be accompanied by works. James 2:17-18 says “(17) So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (18) But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” And we are told much, much, much more about faith.
Rodibidably defines faith as “belief without evidence”. This is not a biblical definition of faith. Nowhere that I know of in the Bible is faith defined or portrayed in this way. If I am wrong, I ask for someone to please correct me on this point. The Bible tells us that the evidence for our faith is all around us and that we have no excuse before God for not acknowledging it. Romans 1:18-21 says “(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” Let me reiterate that…..we are without excuse because the evidence for God is all around us.
How can our faith be a blind faith if the evidence is all around us? There are only two possibilities. If we truly have a blind faith then our faith is false or it is in a false god. Can you think of any other possibilities? So the next time you here someone talking about blind faith you can be sure that they don’t understand the nature of true faith or that they are not Christians. Maybe both.
The Everyday Christian 
religion is for the weak of mind
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If you are going to make such a stupid blanket attack on people who are religious at least have the courage to put your name and blog to your comment.
Also, if you insist on making this statement then you must provide the evidence to prove your assertion. Until you do your comment is simply your opinion…..your WRONG opinion.
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Rodibidably,
First, Genesis 22 contains gives us the account of when Abraham was tested by God and told to sacrifice his son Isaac (I actually taught from this chapter approximately 6 weeks ago, give or take a week or two). We are told in verse 1 that God was testing Abraham. God tests us to draw us closer to Himself. So we know right from the start that what God’s general purpose was. We see in verse 5 what kind of faith Abraham had…..it is very strong. Verse 5 says “Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.” Abraham was certain that one way or another that he and Isaac were going to return. How can this be? Abraham remembered the promises God had made to him. It did not matter whether God was going to provide another sacrifice (which He did) or raised Isaac from the dead, either way God was going to fulfill His promises to Abraham. Later in the chapter (in verses 15-18) God confirms His purpose for the test. He was testing Abraham’s obedience. God wanted Abraham to know just how far he was willing to go to obey God. God already knew how far Abraham would go….He was not waiting to see what Abraham’s decision would be. He was never afraid that Abraham might fail. You must be careful not to come to that conclusion because it is a false conclusion. No, God knew exactly what Abraham would do…but He wanted Abraham to know also.
Having eliminated the Abraham reference from the “blind faith” question, I now will return to Thomas. Let’s first get an understanding of the circumstances that led to Thomas’ declaration that he would not believe with proof. Thomas had been with Jesus for 3+ years. He had been taught directly by Jesus, he had witnessed Jesus teaching others, he had seen the miracles Jesus did, he had seen Jesus arrested, tried, beaten, bloodied, bruised, crucified, and buried. Today, we would say how can anyone who saw all this first hand have any doubts as to who and what Jesus was. But in reality, barring God giving us discernment we would have reacted in much the same way Thomas did.
The story of Thomas is in John 20:24-29. It says “(24) Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. (25) So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” (26) Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” (27) Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” (28) Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (29) Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
We see in verse 25 that Thomas declares that he will never believe unless he has physical proof. Meaning until he can see the risen Lord with his wounds from being crucified. This shows that he had NO faith, not blind faith. That is the point of the passage…..Thomas had no faith before Jesus appeared to him in His resurrected body. His faith came from his ability to see the resurrected Jesus. In verse 29, Jesus points out that those who have not seen the resurrected Jesus and yet have believed are blessed. This passage in no way indicates that there is no evidence or that people are required to believe without evidence.
Rodibidably said
I do not mean to be rude but this statement is simply ridiculous. If it is true (and I don’t think it is) then it shows the sad state of christian education in our churches. If this “vast majority” of “christians” actually believe that God requires blind faith then, at best, they have been misled and, at worst, they may not be Christians at all.
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Billy over at thegreengospel recently posted on faith and he also touched on blind faith. Click here to read it.
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Hi
Blind faith, in my opinion, is no faith. A blind man does not see, so he may fall into any ditch in the way. One should be research minded and should base his faith on certainties in stead of doubts,myths and mysteries.
I respect your religion; but I have my own free opinion. I think it to be too cruel for a father (God) to sacrifice/kill his beloved one (son) for others imaginary sins.
The truth, in my opinion, is that Jesus was not God; he never proclaimed as such, there are no direct quotes from him in this regards. God talked with Jesus and revealed His word on him, He chose Jesus his Messenger/Prophet/Messiah, Jesus was not a son of God.
Jews did not believe that Jesus was a true Moshiach or Prophet of God and to prove that they tried to kill him by putting him on cross, Jesus became unconscious due to the injuries inflicted on him. He was delivered from cross alive and placed in a room like tomb where he was treated for the injuries.
This was done secretly lest the Jews again torture him. Afterwards, he went to spread the gospel to the remaining ten tribes of the House of Israel, he died a natural death later at some point in the history. This is all truth in my opinion.
Kindly visit my blogsite for any peaceful comments and or peaceful discussion on interesting posts/pages there. You are welcome for your differing opinion/thoughts if you so like.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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Hello,
Sorry for not posting a link to my blog, I’m not trying to avoid further discussion, I just don’t have a blog and just happend to stumble across this one.
I’ve got a couple of comments I want to make. I am a Christian but I’m just trying to look deeper into some stuff to find answers. So here are my questions/comments.
Romans 1:18-21 – From these verses it seems to be saying that a simple look at our natural world will point to a creator. I would agree to this completely. What I don’t understand is how this points to the Christian/Jewish God. Nature points to intelligent design but I don’t see how it points to a specific God. How then can we be blamed for not knowing which God is truth based solely on this point.
Secondly in Genesis 22 you state that God knew all along that Abraham would pass this test. Yet in verse 12 God says “for now I know” which suggests he didn’t know before. Where does the idea come from that He knew from the get go?
The verses you gave for the Thomas argument found in John also doesn’t seem to make sense. You say that verse 29 is not saying we don’t need evidence, it is just saying we don’t need first hand seeing evidence. I disagree with this statement simply because you have provided no further proof. Your argument suggests that just because Thomas needed evidence so must everyone else.
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Ryan,
You have hit on a good point. How can we know which god is the true God? Lets consider things logically. For this I will mention the Law of Causality (or the Law of Cause and Effect). Basically it says that for every effect there is a cause. Theoretically, you could examine every effect and find its cause. That cause would be the effect of another cause. You could eventually trace things back to the original cause and effect. When you got to the first cause you would realize that it did not have a cause. It has to be an un-caused first cause. It would have to be self sufficient and self sustaining. It would be the creator of all things.
Now that we have established that there is only ONE cause, we have to see if we can determine what it is. As Christians, we believe that this First Cause is God. In our search for God we can eliminate all religions that believe in more than one god. Then we can start comparing the claims of the remaining religions to see if they are valid or not. Through this process, we will find that only one proves true. That is the God of the Universe…the One True God, the Christian God.
In Genesis 22, God was testing Abraham. God knew how Abraham would respond. If He did not know then He is not God. God knows all things and all possible things. One of His attributes is all-knowing or Omniscient. Any interpretation of a particular passage that is in conflict with one of God’s self stated attributes must be wrong. Therefore, you need to find the correct interpretation. That was the basis on which I made my statements.
I think you have misunderstood my comments. I am not saying that we don’t need evidence. God does not expect us to obey blindly. We are to search for the evidence He has given us. The Thomas story in John 20 is in reference to his lack of faith. He would not believe that Jesus had been resurrected unless He saw Him personally. Thomas was typical of many non-believers today….they say things like they “will not believe that God exists unless God appears to them”. Thomas had the ability to know Jesus personally and see Him after His resurrection. We don’t have that opportunity, therefore we must have faith. Faith that is given to us by God.
I hope this has helped clarify my previous statements. Thanks for visiting my blog and come back and leave comments any time.
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I don’t like your main point about the Bible being a source of true “faith”. It doesn’t make any sense. Blind faith can be defined by writing from thousands of years ago. Your point that God shows himself to us and allows us to have true “faith” in him also makes no sense, at least from my life so far. I was born into a christian home. Don’t you think if God showed himself to me in enough of a way for me to have true “faith” in him, that I would have trusted him? It makes no sense to say that it isn’t just blind faith. The only thing you have in life to say that your God is real and that your God is the creator of the Universe is the Bible. Furthermore, to believe in the Christian God means you are ignoring much of known science today; this means that you trust a 2,000 year-old book more than you trust the smartest people in today’s world, which is obviously nonsense. Hopefully, you will be able to reply back to this because I’m not really sure how long ago all this conversation happened. Haha… Oh well, I’m not saying Christianity isn’t a good thing to believe in, seeing that it has some very good and important values and lessons to life, but you can learn from these lessons without believeing that it wasn’t just some very smart humans from 3,000 years ago that are saving you right now. This topic always interests me, so please respond ;D
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Scientist today would be over joyed to hear that you have such faith in them. I love science, and do benefit from science, “meaning knowledge” daily.
Not long ago science, the best science was to drain President Washington’s blood to make him well. This actually killed him, but it was the best science available. 40 years ago the m\best science in psychology was to use shock therapy, or a labotomy for the mentally ill. This left them in a vegetative or debilitative state. Be careful who you give your blind faith to. Question continually and often. Study diligently. The study of evolution came through a few observations by Darwin. Many of the “truths” that have been heralded as “facts” carry little weight. It may be that we don’t have all the answers and still search. I would not think exclusion of God because of science to be prudent. But ……what do I know anyway?
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Chris,
You said:
Faith comes from a knowledge of truth. That makes perfect sense. There is only one source of truth and that is God. He IS truth. His word IS truth. Blind faith has nothing to do with truth.
You said
Being born into a Christian home is not the same thing as being regenerated. Simply seeing or knowing Christians is not enough by itself to bring someone to the point of salvation. The only thing that bring us to salvation is being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. God does that only to those He chooses. If He has brought you to salvation yet, I pray that He will.
You said
What I think is nonsense is to trust in our flawed knowledge. Science is doing the best it can but we find every day that something we thought we knew for sure was wrong. So I propose this to you, why not believe in the One who created all things (including science). Would it not make more sense than to turn to the One with the answers when we have questions. God, as creator, has full knowledge of all He created.
I will be happy to continue this discussion with you. Ask your questions and I will try to answer them.
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Chris,
I came across this definition of faith in my reading. I thought it might help you. It is from E.M. Bounds in his book “The Complete Works of E.M. Bounds On Prayer” page 19.
A few sentences after the above quote, Bounds also writes
I hope these quotes help.
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>>For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.<>How can our faith be a blind faith if the evidence is all around us? <<
This proves nothing. It is still blind faith because it is just that – blind and invisible.
If He is such a divine power then why can he not let us all know that he is God? Wouldn't he be able to do that? Why should we rely on the word of man to deliver Gods message? I don't trust man, especially to deliver a message from God.
This is a genuine question, I'm not bashing anyones beliefs. I respect all who respect me.
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I have a real problem believing in blind faith. I am not as well versed in the bible as yourselves, but I know that around 500 AD the modern bible was put together by the the new Roman Catholic Church. First of all this was done by men who picked and chose based on their own flawed biases. In the years that followed, the dark ages, the church became corrupt greedy and merciless. All in the name of God almighty. Why should all Christians then be required to believe in that God and the bible as constructed, as a requirement to go to Heaven. I believe that Jesus himself, as described by the bible, lived the kind of life that I would aspire to. The stories about God himself leave me perplexed. It seems to me that God as described in the bible is both vengeful and prideful. The plagues in Egypt, the treatment of Sodom and Gamora, the tests that God required of many of his followers. They seem cruel and unnecessary. How many people did God require to suffer to make him happy and why? Pride? Blind faith itself is based on the sin of pride. How can that be? It would seem that a real true God, one that I could and would want to believe in, would be alot more humble. He would allow his people to live their lives without interference and would base their afterlife on how they lived their lives, their unselfish deeds, their generosity and the sacrifices they made. It seems that an awful lot of self proclaimed Christians do not live their lives in a very Christian like way, Greed seems to drive alot of what happens in this country as Christians want to keep more for themselves with disdain for the less fortunate. But they go to heaven while I go to hell because I refuse to to believe without question in the bible. That in itself makes no sense to me. Also what happened to the native peoples of the Americas, Africa and Asia before they were killed and/or conquered by the Christians. They did not have blind faith, as they would have never even heard of Jesus, God or the bible. Straight to hell for them I guess. Doesn’t something seem wrong here. Christianity itself seems to have as much evil as good in it’s own history, and it appears that not alot has changed. First we back a killer like Sadam Hussein then we bring him down as soon as he is a threat to our own greed, not because of any moral reasons. We are a Christian country of hippocrites. I read above one thing that does make alot of sense to me, the one cause, possibly sciences Big Bang Theory. What caused this to happen, maybe God.
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If faith is a gift from God, he must have only given it to a select few, and I must not have been one of the lucky recipients… Instead, I was somehow born with the power to think (weird, right?), and as this ability matured, I lost the “faith” which my mother instilled in me. When I began thinking and researching, I realized that the bible is LOADED with contradictions, and as such, could not be taken as the complete word of an unchanging, all knowing, all powerful, all good God (things that contradict each other when evil is taken into consideration).
I’m sorry, but your argument fails.
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Brian,
Yes, faith is a gift given only to his people. First, he regenerates his people. As a result they see the situation they are in (headed for eternity separated from God due to their sin) and they turn to God for salvation. Faith is his gift to them as a result of their turning to him. Only believers received the gift of saving faith.
Now to the supposed contradictions…..there are none. Not one! I am sorry that you can’t see and understand that. It is my hope for you that God will save you.
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Thank you, Tom, for your response, but I am still left with more questions than answers.
So how do you suppose one can have faith and lose it? I was a devout Christian until I started asking questions that could not logically be answered. I found that belief can only be irrational; by this, I mean the Christian God’s existence cannot be explained rationally, and there are countless arguments which prove this, especially in the omni’s which I (and many others) especially find fault with.
I was born and raised in a very strong Christian home and thought I was well studied in theology and the Bible, but upon closer inspection, I realized there is so much in that book that does not make sense considering what we know and can prove today.
The original argument above states that, ” Ephesians 2:8-9 says “(8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Is this only speaking to Christians? Why wouldn’t a loving God give this gift to everyone? An all knowing, all powerful god who wants as many followers as he can get would know that people like me would doubt and need proof, so he would make himself much more obvious and believable so that skepticism would not keep us apart from him.
I am not trying to brow beat anyone, I just don’t understand how a rational person who requires logic to believe can accept and put full faith in (any) God’s existence. I’m currently agnostic and searching for a sensible answer, but as of yet, I have found myself wanting. There are too many religions to choose from and no way of knowing which, if any, is the correct one. Most carry equal weight and each has its own doctrine that says readers it is the true religion. I just don’t see how it is possible to believe without just having blind faith.
On a side note, after reading the comments of others, I am also confused on creationism… If everything is cause and effect, what was God’s cause? Who created him? “Alpha and Omega, beginning and end…” I know, but then apparently everything doesn’t have a cause after all. One can’t argue that everything has a cause and then say that one thing didn’t. It just doesn’t make sense without this faith that I can’t seem to find.
As for contradictions, what Bible are you reading? Google “Biblical contradictions” and you will likely find yourself reading all night.
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Brian,
You said: “So how do you suppose one can have faith and lose it?”
First we must distinguish between faith and saving faith. Everyone has faith and that faith is expressed every day. The object of that faith changes based on the situation. For example, when you sat down at your computer before typing the above comment you had faith that the chair would support you. Your faith was based on the fact that you had sat in that chair and others before and they had supported you so you had faith it would do so again. Saving faith only comes to those who have been saved by God. It is a result of their understanding what he has done for them in the past. How he has saved them from an eternity to be spent in hell separated from him.
The difference between the two is the object of the faith. We have to examine if that object is worthy of our faith. If you keep your chair long enough it will eventually fail to support you and your faith will be proven false. For a time the chair was worthy but it will not always be so. If you have saving faith you are trusting that God will do what he has promised he would do (which is complete your salvation and grant you entrance into Heaven for all eternity). God never changes and God never fails. He is worthy of the faith we have in him. If you have saving faith you cannot lose it because the object of that faith is perfect and is worthy of the faith for all time.
So I do not believe that a person can “have faith and lose it” if they are truly saved. A person who turns from God and their faith will eventually come back to it if they are truly saved. If a person never returns to that faith then they never had true saving faith to begin with and were a false convert. The Bible tells us that no man can remove one of God’s people from his hand. Saving faith is permanent because God is eternal.
You said:
The Bible was written to believers. God is not obligated to save everyone. In fact he is not obligated to save anyone. He would be perfectly justified to save no one and send us all to hell for all eternity because of our sins. But he did not chose that. God is not motivated by getting “as many followers as he can get”. He chose to save some in order to maximize his glory.
God knew that there would be skeptics and unbelievers. He knew that many would stumble at the message of Jesus. He knew many would reject his word. Yet, he still chose to create everyone and we all have one purpose in common: to glorify God. Believers and unbelievers alike do this because God has decreed it to be that way.
Now a question for you. How much more obvious and believable do you want him to be? He created all that is by the word of his mouth out of nothing and his creation testifies to his existence and greatness. He took human form (Jesus) and walked among us doing signs and miracles declaring his existence and greatness. He gave us his word in written form for all future generations as a testimony of what he has done. What more proof do you want or need to convince you?
You said:
I think you have misunderstood. Every EFFECT has a cause. God is not defined as an effect. Theoretically you could trace back every effect to its cause. Eventually you would have to get to an original uncaused first cause because infinite regression is a logical fallacy. That uncaused first cause has to have always existed. It can’t have a beginning or an end. We know this because if there was every a time in which nothing existed then nothing would ever exist because something can’t come from nothing. Therefore, it is quite logical to argue that God does not have a cause.
You don’t have to be a Christian to believe in an uncaused first cause but as a Christian I believe this to be God. This does not require blind faith because we can see what he created. Our faith is not in that he exists because this is a given. Our faith is in what he has done and promised to do.
I know this was a long response but I hope that it clarifies some of the points to my argument for you and others who may come and read this post and its comments.
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Brian, my religious stance is very similar to yours. I was raised as a Christian and was a full believer. I was taught not to question Gods ways but there were things that didn’t make sense to me.
As for the bible contradictions (Taken from http://www.infidels.org)
“PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
[Editor’s note: Some readers have raised an objection to this alleged contradiction. They point out that PSA 145:20 states that The Lord keeps all who love Him, but that He will destroy the wicked. In other words, some see no contradiction between “The Lord is good to all” and JER 13:14. Others contend, however, that even if the Lord destroys the wicked he could do so with compassion, pity, and mercy. Further, there are biblical examples that indicate that the Lord is not necessarily “good” or merciful–even to those who are not wicked. One such example is Job. As one reader points out, “If Psalm 145:9 was not a contradiction of Psalm 145:20 or Jeremiah 13:14, it would read something like this: “The LORD is good to all, except the wicked: and his tender mercies are over all his works, except when He is punishing the wicked.” In any case, the idea that the Lord is good and merciful is contradicted by countless examples in the Bible where God orders the destruction of infants, personally kills David’s infant child, etc.]”
“EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.”
“Which first–beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.”
“ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
I could keep going… there are thousands.
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Thank you, Amber, for your cut ‘n’ paste.
Tom, thank you for your continued discourse. I am learning much through it, but probably not what you intended to teach.
I realize there is a lot here, but the more I learn, the less I know, and the more questions I have. These are not new questions; many people have asked them, but logical answers are yet forthcoming. I just never had seriously questioned or evaluated my beliefs, and when I did, I realized they were not logical (and then lost faith”).
My chair is about 10 years old. It has survived 8 moves (a lot, I know. I was in the Navy) and while it has not yet failed me, I recognize that it always could. One of the many differences between my chair and your God is that I can see, touch, and feel my chair. I base my belief that it will not fail me on past experience with that chair because it, and many like it, have never failed me before. Throughout my life, like most people, I have suffered pain and losses of one form or another, and especially in these most desperate times, I looked for God and ended up finding my true comfort in my friends, not in his book and not in church (though I’ve looked extensively in both places). He, opposite my chair, and as I’m sure you know, is not tangible. I have been “born again,” in that I have asked the Lord into my heart and pleaded with Him to save me. I have been baptized twice… Once when I was about 10, and again at age 25, because I felt so sure in my belief that I felt it necessary, as I might not have understood what I was doing when I was a child… This was all before I realized that there are tons of questions that the Bible cannot provide sufficient answers for in the area of religion.
As for a God who “would be perfectly justified to save no one and send us all to hell (the mere existence of such a place is impossible in a world of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god) for all eternity because of our sins,” what sin have I committed that would justify eternal damnation? The sin of disbelief? Is that really just? I physically do not have the power to just ignore the inconsistencies and irrationality of religion, now that I am of a much more mature, logical mind than I was 5 years ago. Is it my fault that I cannot believe? Does that warrant eternal damnation? It does not sound very “just” to me to fry me for not being able to do something that I tried for years to do. The only way for me to believe at this point, shy of God actually showing himself in an obvious, irrefutable way, is to unlearn things which I already know (an impossibility without receiving brain damage), which even if I could, I would not choose ignorance… That’s irrational.
How is God exempt from the need for a cause? The principles of causation say that everything that exists was caused by something that predates it. If God is the cause of anything, then God exists within causation. For God to exist, there would have to be a cause for his existence, and to ignore that fact would require special pleading… Another logical fallacy. I’m not sure that infinite regress is one.
What about the problem of evil? Why would an omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), omnibenevolent (all good) [each attributes the Bible says God has] god allow evil? We know evil exists in the world, and that humans are frequently (if not always) the offenders. An all knowing god would know that humans would do evil things if given free will. An all powerful, all knowing, all good would create us to be all good which would not allow us to commit evil (after all, were we not created in his image?). Because he gave us free will?
That does not work if your god is omniscient, because if he is omniscient, then he knows what we are going to do long before we do it… If he knows everything we are going to do, then we cannot do what he does not know; therefore, we never had a choice to begin with.
I look forward to your response, as these questions truly plague me. As much as I do not want to burn for all eternity, I cannot force myself to believe in something that makes no sense to me.
Omnipotence
– Luke 1:37: For with God nothing shall be impossible.
– Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
– Jer. 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee.
Omniscience and free will
– Hebrews 4:13: Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
– Psalms139:2-3: Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine up-rising; thou understands my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
– Isaiah 46:11: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
– Jeremiah 1:4-5: Now the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
Omnibenevolence
– Psalms 19:7: The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple
– 1 John 4:8: Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.
– Psalms 5:4-5: You are not a god who delights in evil; no wicked person finds refuge with you; the arrogant cannot stand before you. You [God] hate all who do evil
– Psalm 18:30: As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.
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Oh, and I would like to use the dictionary’s definition of faith, not the bible’s, if you will allow.
faith/fāTH/Noun
1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
I think this is an important differentiation because of the word “hope.” Faith seems to be more belief than hope.
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Brian,
You said:
First, non-believers do not spend eternity in Hell because of the “sin of disbelief”. They spend eternity in Hell because they have failed to meet God’s standard….which is perfect righteousness. Since God created all that is he gets to define what he requires of his creation. Failure to meet this perfect standard is sin. Disbelief is just one of the many sins that cause us to not meet God’s standard. God is so holy and so righteous that sin cannot exist in his presence. The penalty for sin must be paid. It is paid for by the sinner in that he must spend eternity separated from God in Hell or it is paid for God’s people by the death of Jesus on the Cross. I hope you can see the difference.
The fact that you don’t believe is because you were born with a sin nature (as all people are) and as a result you sin. Because of the sin nature it is impossible for you to believe. On your own you cannot overcome this. But God overcomes it for his people by giving them a new nature. He replaces their heart of stone with a heart of flesh and thus regenerates them. Once regenerated they are then able and willing to choose God. So, if you don’t believe it is because God has not yet given you the ability to do so. I pray that He will. Your fault is not that you can’t believe but it is that you have sinned and must pay the penalty for those sins on your own if God has not saved you.
The eternal punishment is warranted because of the sins we commit are against a holy and perfect God. We exist in time but he exists in eternity. His offense at our sins is therefore eternal. Also, there is something else to consider. Who says that people stop sinning once they are in Hell. What I mean is that it is possible and maybe probable that those in Hell spend much of their time there cursing God.
You said:
Actually the law of causation says that every effect has a preceding cause. As I said before, theoretically you could trace everything back to the beginning or the first cause. That first cause by definition has to be without a cause. There has to be a first cause because infinite regression is a logical fallacy. If God has a cause then it would be greater than he is and it would be God instead of him. So by definition, there has to be something that exists without a prior cause.
It is late so I will address your question about evil tomorrow if I get a chance.
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The next time your chatting it up with God, can you ask him something for me? Can you ask him why he is so pathetic and insecure that he needs to appeal to cowardice and fear by using threats and bribes to inspire “belief”? Ask him if he is REALLY happy with this kind of disgusting artificial “love”. Also, a personal question for you. All 50,000 different sects, cults and denominations of Christianity claim they have the one true answer, so why can’t any of you agree on what that answer actually is, despite all going by the same book and all claiming to pray to and “know” the Christian God?
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Wow! you have changed my whole perspective in just one paragraph. How could i have been so blind? How have i never heard these profound questions before?
On a less sarcastic note, if you have any serious questions i would love to help you understand what God’s word says.
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I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to respond… Finals and vacation. I’m going to bullet this because I think it will make my response easier.
* First, non-believers do not spend eternity in Hell because of the “sin of disbelief”. They spend eternity in Hell because they have failed to meet God’s standard….which is perfect righteousness. —> Who has met “God’s standard [of] perfect righteousness” besides maybe Jesus? “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,” remember?
* God is too holy for sin to exist in his presence, but he not only condones, but encourages genocide, slavery, and racism? (Samuel 15, throughout the Bible, against anyone who wasn’t an Israelite, respectively)That doesn’t sound very holy or benevolent to me. I’m pretty sure mass murder is a sin.
* You (and the Bible) say disbelief is one of the many sins… How is it a sin if one cannot believe, regardless of how hard they have tried?
* You keep saying that I have sinned, and that I was born into sin, but you have yet to say what those sins are that are bad enough to justify eternity in a lake of fire… That seems like it should require some pretty massive wrongdoings to me, and as I’m a generally good person, it does not seem right… Is man more moral than God? Is it right that Gandhi, a man of peace who spent his life peacefully uniting a war-torn nation, would spend eternity in hell because he’s not a Christian, but Hitler, who was a professed believer could ask forgiveness and be granted passage into heaven?
* “Who says that people stop sinning once they are in Hell. ” Umm… Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t Christians also sin? So who says that they stop sinning in heaven?
* So who says there can’t be a god greater than your God, and another god greater than that god, and so on and so on? I don’t understand why or how infinite regression is a fallacy if everything has a cause, but I would love for you to explain it in a way that I would understand. I’ve actually been trying to read a lot about the subject, but admittedly, it’s a little over my head.
* I would also still like logical, viable answer to the problem of evil, as this is the question that made me doubt my faith to begin with… From there, it was the snowball effect.
Thanks,
B.
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Brian
You said:
Nobody meets God’s standard except Jesus. It is impossible because of our fallen sinful nature to meet the standard of perfect righteousness. Since no one can meet this standard God sent Jesus to pay the price for his people. He provided the atonement necessary to reconcile his people to himself. As a result, when God looks at his people he no longer sees their faults. He only sees the righteousness of Jesus applied to them.
Next, God bringing judgment on his creation (people in this case) is not “mass murder”. He has the right to bring about the punishment or judgment on what he has created in any way he sees fit. All God’s creation will face God’s judgment at some point because he had decreed that it.
You have a misconception here. The Bible teaches us that no person can believe (come to God) unless God draws them. This means that no one will want to believe unless God grants him that desire. God only grants this desire to his people after he has regenerated them. Those who are not regenerated will never want to or try to believe. So, nobody who wants to believe will be prevented from doing so.
All people are born with an inherited sin nature as a result of the Fall in the Garden of Eden. When Adam and Eve sinned it corrupted all of creation and all their descendants (all people). This means that all people (me and you included) are born sinners. We do not have the ability not to sin. We will eventually sin and when we do commit our first sin we have sealed our fate and are destined to spend eternity in Hell. Our only hope of escape is for God to pay the penalty for us. This is what Jesus did on the cross for his people.
Excellent question. The answer is sanctification. Sanctification is an event and a process. At the point of our regeneration all believers are sanctified in the sense of being set apart for a purpose. The process of sanctification also begins at the point. Sanctification is the process of becoming more like Christ. This process continues throughout the life (conversion to death) of the believer. At death the process of sanctification is completed and we are made perfectly righteous like Jesus. That is why it is not possible for a believer to sin in Heaven.
The problem of evil is something that cause many people to stumble and have doubts. For me it is not an issue because I believe that God is sovereign in all things and that he can use even evil events to bring about his will. Many will say that if God is good or if he is all powerful that he would stop evil. He could do that if it was his choice to do so but obviously he has not. Not one thing that happens, good or bad, surprises God. He knows everything that will happen before it happens because he directly caused it or allowed it. He uses all things bring about his plans. So for me, the existence of evil does not cause me to have any doubts in my faith.
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So evil is OK? o.O
As for God’s mass murder, I’m talking about his encouragement of war and the destruction of entire civilizations by killing everyone who lived there, except for the virgin women, in which case he recommends taking them for wives (against their will). (Deut 3, Deut 20, Deut 21, Judg 21, Num 31, Ex 21, ) The list of biblical references to God’s condoning of atrocities goes on and on… In Zechariah 14, God even promises to help rape women. Not to mention His views on racism and slavery. How is this a good God? If I believed he existed, I’d fear him too! He sounds like a jerk.
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Brian,
I did not say “evil is OK”. I said that God is sovereign even in the face of evil. Evil does not surprise him and it does not stop him. His will is accomplished no matter what. He can, when he desires to do so, use evil as a tool. This does not mean that he causes or inspires evil. It means that men are corrupted and will do evil if allowed to do so and when God so chooses he allows them to commit evil acts.
As to God’s “encouragement of war and the destruction of entire civilizations” and to his supposed promise to help rape women…well I think you are wrong. First, in the Old Testament we often read how God chose to use one nation to bring his judgment to fruition on another nation. God, as creator, has the right to bring his judgment to bear in any manner he chooses. He can justly use one sinful people or nation to execute his judgment on another people or nation. God executing his judgment is not wrong or evil. It is righteous and it is just.
The Zechariah 14 passage you site and claim that God will “help rape women” is ridiculous. In that passage God is describing what will happen on a day he plans to bring judgment on Jerusalem. Corrupt nations are going to bring siege to Jerusalem and there will be some terrible things happen because those attacking the city are sinful corrupt people. God is not going to “help rape women”. You must always take the passages you read in context. If you continue to read the passage God then tells how he is going to bring judgment on the nations he uses to bring judgment on Jerusalem.
The fact that God “sounds like a jerk” to you is understandable. You have admitted that you don’t believe he exists and so you have admitted that you are not one of his children. As such, to you things of God are foolish. The bible tells us as much and it can not be any other way. I pray that God will regenerate you and bring you to salvation at some point in your life. Until he chooses to do so you will continue to see his truths as nothing but folly.
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I’m sorry, Tom, but it sounds like you are making excuses for an evil, narcissistic God.
Zech 14:2 “For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.”
rav·ish/ˈraviSH/Verb
1. Seize and carry off (someone) by force.
2. (of a man) Force (a woman or girl) to have sexual intercourse against her will.
Paraphrased: I will bring my gang together and attack Jerusalem. We will win and destroy the houses and rape the women. We will take half of the citizens into captivity (probably forcing them into slavery), but the rest will be left alone.
How much clearer can that be?
Maybe one day I will find convincing evidence that God exists and is good, but I don’t think it will be today, and I don’t think your answers offer much toward the matter. The God of the Christian Bible (especially the Old Testament) sounds like an angry, jealous, selfish child who bullies others on the playground. I cannot see this as good, and it would require some heavy duty special pleading to justify His actions. I am not done searching for answers and maybe even for a god, but the Christian God just does not seem to be one who, as a man of peace and a student of ethics and philosophy, I would choose to follow. I do, however, thank you for your time. Take care, in this world, and the next (if it’s out there).
B.
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Brian,
No, I am the one who is sorry. I wish God would open your eyes so that you could understand who he is and how he deals with his creation. I pray that he does that for you at some point. Until he does that I urge you to keep asking questions and keep searching for answers. Feel free to come back anytime with your questions. I will try to answer them or will direct you to some place where the answers can be found.
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Hershey:
I ended up hear looking for info on a paper I am writing to share with other about true faith (one that is based on evidence – the Bible). How the world find it so easy to believe everything, but God’s Word. Some say they don’t believe in religion, and faith, but when you examine it logically everyone does. This include atheist, naturalist, humanist, etc. (The Fool’s Philosophy). They find it easier to believe that the material evidence we have today came from nothing. Science was created by God for us to know him – “the heaven declare the glory of God.” The Bible say the fool has said in his heart there is no God. It doesn’t mean that they are not intelligent beings, it just mean that they don’t know how to properly apply knowledge. Some say “I don’t believe anything” or they may just use the word “think” to avoid the “religious” term. Religion is anything that has devotion, zeal, and dedication. Everyone has a religion. Religion is not only applied to those who believe in God. Everyone may not believe in God, but everyone has a god (idolatry). All world views including humanism argue about the nature of truth and reality.
As I read the comment on here especially from Brian (his response to the answers) I realize that there is something that goes deeper to the heart. It is not that he wants answers to his questions, but he has made up his mind about his belief, and so he is asking questions to confirm it. I have learnt that many people in the world today have blind faith because their motive is not sincere. They do not have a sincere desire for the truth. Jesus explained that the world cannot believe in him because of the condition of our heart (see Matt 13:1-23, The parable of the sower and the soil ) – a perfect example of the world today:
The Parable of the Sower Explained “Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
This is the reason why people search the scriptures for errors, and not for it’s treasure. According to the law of non-contradiction – if any part of the Bible has error, then it is all wrong and cannot be trusted. Which mean it cannot be the inspired word of God. When we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us to discern truth from lies this is what happen. We take the scriptures out of context to satisfy our preconceive ideas). 1 Corinthians 2:14 says “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Before I became a true believer in Christ, I use to be the same way like Brian. My chemistry and biology background had me asking a lot of questions about God. But a part of me (my God-given conscience) told me otherwise. Evolution and all the intellectuals around could not answer all my questions. Questions like “how can we get something from nothing?” and “where did we get morality from” My maturity in Christ started with my sincere desire to know the truth by searching the scriptures literally and prayerfully for myself and not listening to what other people were saying. What got my attention was where it says in the Bible that everyone will have to give an account for the way we live on the day of judgement. When we ask questions like, “can we give life to others?”, “can we prevent ourselves from dying?” We cannot help but think of a Supernatural being (God). There are only 2 possible externalities (the universe and God). Science which many has come to know and trust (many even put their faith in it) has scientifically proven that the universe is not eternal. This only leaves one externalities – God!
Jesus told his disciples that they should not waste their time with anyone who reject the Gospel of Christ – “dust off your feet and move on” If we reject anything about the character and will of God we reject all of him. The devil wants us to spend our time with vain arguments, while souls are dying and going to Hell. Arguing with people who have their mind about their belief is fruitless. None of God’s people in the Bible spend their time trying to prove God’s existence, so we shouldn’t. The bible makes it clear in Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” Not to say we should not answer their questions with truth, facts, and reasoning (logic). We do this to remove some of the intellectual barriers some people are facing when we are discipling – but not to win argument or convince them. The Holy Spirit does that. That is were true Christian faith lies – in God. We are told to share the Word of God with other, the Holy Spirit brings conviction. We do this because the Bible say they need to know the Word, “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God” The more we understand God’s word, the more faith we have in him. If they refuse to believe the Bible (which will never pass away), then nothing we do and say will convince them.
The Bible say that There is none righteous, no not one. There is the sin of commission and the sin of omission. We all know about the sins of commission – the things God commands us to not do (lying, stealing, murder, etc.), however many of us forget about the sins of Omission (the things he commanded us to do). Everyone who ultimately misses Heaven does so because of a sin of omission. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (Jn. 3:18). It is the sin of not believing (Mark. 16:16).
Lets pray sincerely for God to open the minds and heart of others, as he has done for us.
God Bless
A good site for answers to questions: http://www.gotquestions.org
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The Bible is not evidence. It is a book that stands alone without any actual evidence to back it up. Your grammar is horrible (much like your logic and arguments).
My mind is more open than most. Christians are some of the most closed-minded people I know. If only closed-minds also came with closed mouths.
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That was very well argued Brian Rice. That passage from Zech 14:2 “For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” is truly intriguing.
This makes me think if the Bible was meant to be taken literally. I personally believe that the Bible is a book that can be interpreted differently. And since nobody alive today has really had contact with Jesus, it would be impossible to say which is the right way to interpret the Bible. OR maybe the Bible was really meant to be interpreted differently depending on which fits the best on the person’s background. Just a thought.
But I think, what really stands out is “love one another.” And might be really all that matters.
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That was very well argued Brian Rice. That passage from Zech 14:2 “For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” is truly intriguing.
This makes me think if the Bible was meant to be taken literally. I personally believe that the Bible is a book that can be interpreted differently. And since nobody alive today has really had contact with Jesus, it would be impossible to say which is the right way to interpret the Bible. OR maybe the Bible was really meant to be interpreted differently depending on which fits the best on the person’s background. Just a thought.
But I think, what really stands out is “love one another.” And might be really all that matters.
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Thank you for that article and for the comments. From my humble experience the blind faith in God was a root for my acquaintance with God through His eternal word and “love one another” as Leo mentioned is the key to everything and to understand God who IS Love. The blind faith in God helped me overcome many difficulties including some diseases (read my experience in my website) but still it worked as Placebo in most of all cases. Only when started realizing that actually faith means strong conviction and understanding God as the one Mind and love since then I deepened and dipped my thoughts in His thoughts already KNOWING as Jesus said that “I can do of myself nothing”. So that conviction on a much deeper level of thought brought myself to the full recognition that “God is very present help in trouble”.
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