Election – Explained Clearly By Mark Driscoll

This is one of the clearest explanations of the Doctrine of Election that you will ever hear.  Take 8 minutes and watch this….you will be glad you did.

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35 Responses to Election – Explained Clearly By Mark Driscoll

  1. theoldadam says:

    Interesting.

    I would be interested in knowing if there are altar calls at his church. Do people give their hearts to Jesus and make decisions for Jesus, at his church?

    If so, then he really hasn’t gotten past the “free will” thinking, himself, yet.

    Yes, our ‘wills’ are bound to sin. And they remain that way, even though God has made a decision for us on the cross and in our baptisms.

    But He comes after us again and again and again.

    Great post…thanks.

    Like

    • Tom Shelton says:

      Jerry,

      I respect your right to believe what you want but this stuff is hogwash. You have flooded my blog with basically the same post over and over. I have never heard the points you make from anywhere else. You say that you learned this from your own personal study. I think you are wrong and need to begin your studies again. Your point that God only saves the Hebrews and that the tribe of Judah never needed to be saved is not in agreement with the teachings of the New Testament. Please read the whole book of Romans.

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  2. Wayne Webb says:

    One of the problems you have with your explanation, Mr. Driscoll, is that when all those sinners who were never regenerated, stand before God at the Great White Throne judgement they’re supposed to NOT have an excuse…. And as to your final statement; ” the question is not that God is unjust, but do we trust Him”… are you serious? I say to you that the real question is, Is God TRUSTWORTHY. Jesus said: “he that would have friends, must show himself friendly.” God does not expect anyone to blindly trust Him, He “shows Himself friendly.” The Bible says in 2 Peter 3:9 that it is against God’s will for ANY to perish. But It IS His will for EVERYONE to be saved. He shows Himself friendly and trustworthy, but He will JUDGE false teaching and those who misrepresent Him.

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    • Tom Shelton says:

      Wayne,

      Question: If it is God’s will for EVERYONE to be saved why doesn’t everyone end up in Heaven?

      There are only two options. First, either God is not truly sovereign because He is not able to bring His will into being. If it is God’s will for every person to be saved and they don’t end up saved then there is something more powerful than He is….therefore He is not sovereign. Second, there is a different interpretation to 2 Peter 3:9. If that is the case then we need to find what that is. I encourage you to look for it.

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      • Wayne Webb says:

        I’m sorry, I didn’t answer your question…

        The answer is, God has given man the ability and freedom to.choose.
        But like Jesus said about Jerusalem; “ye would not”.
        God is fully able to MAKE anyone do anything. But God offers freedom.

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        • Tom Shelton says:

          Wayne,

          So, it is not really God’s will that everyone be saved.

          If He has the ability to “MAKE” everyone be saved but doesn’t then how can you say that it is His will for everyone to be saved? Why would He allow His will not to be carried out?

          Like

      • It is not God’s will for everyone to be saved. Period. God said he hated Esau before he was born. Ishamel was rejected because of his mother being a Canaanite. The six sons of Keturah were rejected and sent away. Moab and Ammon were rejected because of their mothers being Canaanites. All Gentiles are rejected from the foundation of the earth. They did not have a choice as Canaan who was 1-2 years old when he was rejected because of his mother. In Amos 3 God says you only have I known of all the families of the earth speaking to the House of Israel. Jesus said he came only for the House of Israel no others were included. No choices allowed. Peter was writing to those scattered in the cities of Asis. Only the house of Israel was scattered by the father at the time of the divorce in Jer 3.Again no choices allowed they were scattered as a group and not on the individual basis. In the NT they were pardoned as a group and no choices were allowed. God said he would sift the nations and not lose one. He was doing the sifting and not the wheat was saying I want to stay in the pan. The angel said to Joseph that he was to call his name Jesus and he was going to save HIS people from their sins, No choice allowed again. He did all the doing that their was to be done. In the Parable of the Tares the wheat does not say to the harvester I want to go also Again take the parable of the fish, the good are kept and the bad thrown aside again no personal choices. It is aways the same it is the message of the heathen church of the Lord Jesus Christ that has come up with this personal salvation and one has to do the choosing and give their heart to the Lord or they will be rejected. If you are a gentile, you are rejected from the foundation of the earth no choice allowed.
        Go to my web page and read more about the House of Israel being the only people that God wants, He had Jesus did to remarry his wife so that he could get all the grandchildren of the Lord while she was divorced
        http://www.myprivatelib.come
        Jerry

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    • first of all lets put the book of Peter in context from is first verse and later when he confirrs it.Peter is writing to those scatterd among the cities of Asis and only the Hebrews of the house Of Israel were scattered in the OT Later Peter quotes two passages out of the OT these to who he is writing were once the people of God became not the people of God and once more became the people of God (Hosea). They were a purchased people (Ex17) a royal priest hood and in the end of the 2nd chapter by his stripes you were healed. Not talking of Physical healing but the adultery that casued the divorce in the first pleace. On the individual basis they were never given a choice whether they wanted to be saved from their sins.He is only writing to those of the House of Israel, The gentiles are already rejected waithing the wrath to come no choice allowed.

      Jerry

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  3. Wayne Webb says:

    Thanks for letting me post.

    Like

  4. Wayne Webb says:

    Tom,
    Who is this referring to?

    John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

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  5. Tom Shelton says:

    Wayne,

    Here is verse 16:8 in context:

    John 16:4-11 But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you. “I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. (5) But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ (6) But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. (7) Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. (8) And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: (9) concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; (10) concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; (11) concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

    Jesus himself explains what verse 8 means in verses 9-11. Verse 9 deals with the non-Elect. Verse 10 deals with the Elect. Verse 11 deals with Satan. The convicting the Holy Spirit does is not to give people a chance at salvation…it is to bring about the judgment that God has already pronounced on these groups.

    If you are going to say that the convicting the Holy Spirit does in verse 8 is to give everyone a change at salvation then you are going to have to apply that to Satan also (v. 11). Do you think that Satan can repent and be saved? My guess is that you don’t believe that. If that is the case, then you must explain how and when Jesus makes a distinction in this passage.

    What do you say?

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    • Going to the book of Joel: The Holy Spirit was only given to the whole House of Israel and no gentiles were included, it was not even considered. It was given to identify the whole house of Israel. Read Acts 2 and read the names are not all these Galilians and later it was said to the House of Israel no gentiles were included It was never considered that Satan could be restored to being the music leader again he was thrown out and final he will be rejected.

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  6. Wayne Webb says:

    Acts 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

    “righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come” It appears that Felix was under conviction when he “trembled” then said “Go thy way for this time”

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    • Tom Shelton says:

      Wayne,

      That may, or may not be a valid interpretation of the Acts passage but you did not respond to the context of what Jesus was saying in John 16.

      As for the Acts passage, it may be possible that Felix was being convicted by the Holy Spirit but I would not tend to think that is the correct understanding. I might suggest that Felix simply did not like what he was hearing. Based on the context, which tells us that he spoke with Paul for 2 years (v. 27) before he was replaced by Festus. We also are told that Felix was looking to receive a bribe from Paul. This is not the action of someone who is being convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit.

      I am open to being corrected if I am wrong.

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  7. Wayne Webb says:

    The Holy Spirit convicts a man of his sin, God’s righteousness, and the judgement of Hell. No, he was hearing the Gospel, that’s why he trembled. I believe Paul preached sin bad, Jesus good , and eternity long.

    24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

    And it might have just been bail, or a fine…..and not a bribe.

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  8. Tom Shelton says:

    Wayne,

    Acts 24:24-27 After some days Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, and he sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus. (25) And as he reasoned about righteousness and self-control and the coming judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, “Go away for the present. When I get an opportunity I will summon you.” (26) At the same time he hoped that money would be given him by Paul. So he sent for him often and conversed with him. (27) When two years had elapsed, Felix was succeeded by Porcius Festus. And desiring to do the Jews a favor, Felix left Paul in prison.

    Felix was definitely hearing the Gospel proclaimed…no doubt about it. Many hear the Gospel and don’t like it. I have shared the Gospel myself with others who have become offended and “trembled” (with anger) about what I was saying. For many unbelievers that is the expected response when the Gospel is preached to them….Felix fits this.

    Why not a bribe? Why would he be hoping Paul would give him money if it was a fine or bail? That makes no sense. Felix was looking for a bribe, that is why he often sent for him to talk to him. Just to confirm my understanding of this I consulted several different commentaries. All the ones I looked at said that Felix was wanting to get a bribe from Paul. That seems to be the general understanding of this passage.

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  9. Tom Shelton says:

    Wayne,

    You still have not responded to my explanation of the passage in John 16 that began our discussion. Please go back and re-read what I said and let me know how you get around the context of what Jesus said.

    Like

  10. Wayne Webb says:

    4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

    6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

    7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

    8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

    9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

    10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

    11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

    12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

    13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

    14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

    15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

    16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

    20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

    26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

    27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

    29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    I don’t understand it fully, but you will find the “reproof” of sin, rightoousness and judgement being given in the above verses. Then you can see the conviction in the verse below.

    37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    The sin is unbelief…we are all sinners
    The righeousness is the finished work of the spotless Lamb of God who sits at the right hand of God
    And the judgment is for the devil and everyone who follows him….unbelievers.
    Because the devil’s fate was sealed at Calvary.

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    • The whole passage is about those of the House of Israel who had been scattered in all the cities listed. For only the whole house of Israel can receive the promise of the Spirit Joel 2 The house of Israel had just been pardoned from being with out the covenants and promises. The ekkleesian being the ones ivited out from among the gentiles where they had been scattered by the father. See the OT. Satans fate was sealed when he was casted down to earth as Jesus said I saw Satan fall from heaven as lighting his fate was sealed before the foundation of the earth was cast. When Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth. Jesus died that he could remarry the divorced wife of her youth. Isa 50-55 All the books of the NT are only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel being the ones invited out from among the hated gentiles from the foundation of the earth.
      Jerry

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  11. Tom Shelton says:

    Wayne,

    The Day of Pentecost was a great day…it was the day the New Testament Church was born. I don’t disagree with anything you have said here but I think you stopped a couple verses too soon.

    Acts 2:38-39 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (39) For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

    We see in these verses that the promise of the Holy Spirit is given to those whom God calls to Himself. If God called everyone to Himself then everyone would be saved. Since everyone is not saved we know that God does not call everyone to Himself.

    When the Holy Spirit comes He brings the Elect to salvation and He seals the judgment of the non-Elect. We see in this account in Acts 2 that all those who were Elect were saved and those who were not rejected Peter’s appeal to them. The Holy Spirit was at work in both and God is glorified in both.

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    • Sorry Wayne the church is not even in the NT except by bad translation work of the heathen fathers of the church. The word for church is the invitation of the House of Israel out from among the gentiles. the word is ekkleesian being the ones invited out from among the gentils and when the invitation was destroyed by creating the church the whole message of the NT was lost for 2000 years.Jesus dispatched his learners from the House of Judah to the ethnee the righteous gentiles who were the House of Israel, How can we tell they seek after righteousness. The message has always been to ethnee not gentiles in general. In the NT there are two kinds of Gentiles. the unrighteous gentiles rejected from the foundation of the earth, and the righteous gentiles from the House of Israel who still had the family righteousness from Mount Sinai. There is a third class it is the ethnesin being the ones who have not yet change their mind we find those in the book of Romans Go to the Greek search and read the 15 chapter of Romans. Romans is only to the ekkleesia in Rome never the Romans who were latins.Peter only wrote to those scattered in Asia those being the ones the father had scattered in the OT

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  12. Tom Shelton says:

    Wayne,

    I don’t want to sound like a broken record by I would still like to have your response to the explanation of the John 16 passages we were discussing at the beginning of our interaction.

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  13. Wayne Webb says:

    I am still studying that and will get back to you.. In the meantime…i would point out……

    38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized EVERY ONE OF YOU ……………

    39For the PROMISE is unto YOU, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

    The invitation in verse 38 was to EVERY ONE of you…….
    In verse 39 the “promise” is offered to “every one of you” because this is who is being addressed. and “you” is a plural pronoun in the KJV
    Jesus said “and I if I be lifted up will draw ALL men unto me”…so “as many as the Lord shall call” is everyone. Just becasue He promises and calls is no guarantee that we will heed the call or receive the promise. Verse 38 tells how to enjoy the promise, by heeding the call, repenting and being baptised.

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    • Tom Shelton says:

      Wayne,

      I agree that the command to repent and be baptized is given to everyone. We know that not everyone will though. So the question then becomes why will they or won’t they respond. The answer is found in John 6.

      John 6:37-40 (37) All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. (38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. (39) And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. (40) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

      Even though the command to repent is given universally, only those given to Jesus by the Father will respond and be saved. This is guaranteed. Those given to Jesus will come to Him. So, who are those given to Him….the Elect that He chose before the foundation of the world.

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    • Jesus came only for lost sheep of the House of Israel and it was all men out of that group alone the same for John3:16 the word world is only the world of the House of Israel and not the world of gentiles and the promise of the Holy Spirit was only to the whole House of Israel Joel.2 It is all about the wife and nothing more just to the pardon from being with the covenants and promises. Focus on the House of Israel from the start in the OT and
      Here is a test: Close the NT not allowed to be used for answers. Read only Matthew 1:28, when the angel talked ot Joseph. Answer all the questions about who are HIS PEOPLE, Why did he have to save them and what were the sins that he was going to save them from. There are many more questions that can be ask about that one verse. The new Testament does not appear for 350 years. and the text had alreay been corrupted on the invitation and the rest of the invited words that have never been translated there are 27 of them to be translated.

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  14. theoldadam says:

    Since God (Jesus) commands us to baptize, we can be sure that He is in it, acting for us. (Certainly the Lord is not into empty religious ritual)

    So, God has chosen to save some in Baptism (1st Peter). The promise is for you and your children (The Book of Acts)

    Can someone be saved apart from baptism? Certainly! We affirm that. But God certainly can use baptism as His way of choosing the elect.

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    • Tom Shelton says:

      theoldadam,

      You said

      Can someone be saved apart from baptism? Certainly! We affirm that. But God certainly can use baptism as His way of choosing the elect.

      How do you reconcile that God uses baptism to choose the Elect with the biblical teaching that He chose the Elect before the foundation of the world? Also, what about those who make a false profession of faith and are baptized….are they among the Elect?

      Like

      • The last thing we find in the book of Matthew 28;19 Jesus dispatches his leaners to the ethnee (the righteous Gentiles) teach them all things that I have taught you baptising them in the name of the Father and the Son and The Holy Spirit. No confession listed no repentance list, No believing listed Just teach the house of Israel gentiles what they had been taught.
        Like the Parable of the Tares only the wheat is taken into the barns no request made by the wheat, the gentiles are taken out burned, Jesus said that he did not want to cure the gentiles in another Parable. The bad fish were thrown out for the birds to eat in the hot days sun. Jesus said beware of the wolves in sheep clothing seeking who they may devour. Paul said beware of the dogs (Canaanites) See the story of the Canaanite Women vs the Hebre women. One was a dog and the other was a daughter He did not offer her salvation. Neither did he offer the Pharsees or Sadduces (Hey wait 50 days afterI day and read the hethen text and you can have salvation by beiieving ,You will have to wait 350 years before you can find a copy)

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  15. theoldadam says:

    We cannot know who the elect are. We know who profess Christ, we know who the baptized are.

    There are many who profess Christ and are not His. “We did such and such in your name” and He said, “depart from me, I never knew you.”

    Christ commanded that we Baptize. We do it, and trust that He is there in it. Many scripture verses tell us that He is there, in it. “All of you who were baptized have put on Christ.” (Galatians)

    Romans 6, likewise speaks of baptism as actually doing something.

    For almost a thousand years almost all Christians were baptized as infants. Virtually all of the Reformers were baptized as infants. Were there no (real) Christians then?

    Likewise, the Supper. The Lord commands it, so He is there in it, acting for us.

    This is the Lutheran view and I believe it to be correct.

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    • When the church started with an error and the invitation was lost many errors were to follow. It was a heathen inspired church for the purpose of deceiving the rejected gentiles using the heathen translated text. Read the church fathers and they will lead you into the errors that they followed. Being a church does not make it right for a bad translation. They are nothing more than the mystery religions out of babyon and the Old whore in Revelation 17. In the eyes of God the church has never exist the same as the bad translation in Act 7 their was never a church in the wilderness.
      Jerry

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  16. Tom Shelton says:

    I am not arguing against the validity of baptism. It is the first act of obedience that Christ commands us after we have been saved. It has nothing to do with salvation though. You are also correct in that we have no idea who the Elect are….only God knows for sure.

    A lost person can be baptized but that person does not “put on Christ”. Only the Elect “put on Christ”. Our water baptism is a symbol to the world of our putting on Christ.

    I appreciate you mentioning that you hold the Lutheran position. I was curious as to where you were coming from. I don’t know much about the Lutheran distinctions. For the record, I am a Reformed Southern Baptist so I hold to the believers baptism view. Is it the Lutheran position that baptism is required for salvation?

    I must also come back to my previous questions: How do you reconcile that God uses baptism to choose the Elect with the biblical teaching that He chose the Elect before the foundation of the world? Also, what about those who make a false profession of faith and are baptized….are they among the Elect? Do they live their lives thinking they are among the Elect only to find out different on the day judgment?

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  17. theoldadam says:

    I could not disagree more.

    Christ does not command us to baptize believers. He says “go make disciples …” How? by baptizing into the Trinity and teaching about Himself. Notice the order…baptize and teach.

    There is no mention of any age, either. That is because infants (contrary to sectarian thinking) are cpable of a great deal of faith. That is why Christ admonished us to “become as these little ones.” If infants and small children cannot have faith, then he certainly gave us a misleading picture of what faith looks like.

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  18. Tom Shelton says:

    theoldadam,

    The great commission stands on its own.

    My question to you still stands. Is it the Lutheran view that baptism is necessary for salvation? You have commented previously that a person can be saved apart from baptism but your comments since then all seem to suggest that baptism is necessary for salvation.

    As to infants having faith…there is no doubt. I have a 3 year old and she displays faith in me and her mother every day. The question is not about our faith but who or what we have faith in. I believe that until we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit that we can’t know Jesus or have faith in Him. I suppose that the Holy Spirit could regenerate an infant if He chose to do so but that infant is not capable of understanding its sinfulness when it hears the gospel. When Jesus taught that believers are to have a faith like children He was referring to a complete and utter trusting of the object of our faith just like children have in their parents.

    We have gotten away from election on this but it is an interesting discussion. I will have to read up some on the Lutheran distinctives to see how much difference there is with my own Calvinistic theology.

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  19. theoldadam says:

    I thought I was clear.

    I’ll try it again.

    We are commanded to be baptized and to baptize. God works in baptism. He saves in baptism (if we believe Holy Scripture).

    But He is certainly free to save apart from baptism. But since baptism is all over the place in the Bible and especially the N.T., we trust what God does for us in that act of grace.

    Thanks much.

    I think we are not going to agree on this point. But that’s ok. I just wanted you to hear the Lutheran side of the argument.

    Gotta run.

    Like

    • It is not important what the Lutheran side of beiieve is but what does the word of God have to say about those he choose before the foundation of the earth, You only have I known, Mount Sinai of Arabia the people down below were not given a choice. They were all babtised into the fire and he said “I will be their God” These people had no choice he was going to be their God whether they like it or not. When Jesus died to remary his wife She was not even present to take part in the ceremony. It was the House of Israel that he came to save them from their sins and they were not even given the chocie whether they wante their sins to be saved from.
      Skip the church theology and stick with the wife and her children and what Jesus did for them.

      Like

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