Obama: “Sound Science” and Faith Not In Conflict
March 9, 2009 30 Comments
Here is Obama’s explanation as to why he is overturning the ban on federal funding of embryonic stem cell research. Pay attention to his words.
This should come as no surprise to us because he has always supported murdering unborn babies. What is shocking is how he places science above faith. He has always claimed to be a person of faith but I don’t know what faith he refers to. It certainly is not Christianity. I think his faith is in his political ideals, not the God who created all that is.
Obama said,
“In recent years, when it comes to stem cell research, rather than furthering discovery, our government has forced what I believe is a false choice between sound science and moral values. In this case, I believe the two are not inconsistent. As a person of faith, I believe we are called to care for each other and work to ease human suffering.”
It all sounds good so far, right? Well, I have a question for you. Where do you think these new embryonic stem cells are going to come from? That’s right…from embryos. Our government, at the direction of our president, has just said that it is okay to create human beings for the sole purpose of using them as research material. And our president says that there is no conflict between this “sound science” and a persons faith. Once again, I must wonder what “faith” is he meaning.
In summary, Obama is basically saying that the ends justify the means. He is saying that it is okay to create and destroy these “clumps of cells” for the greater good that can come out of it. These humans beings are expendable in order to achieve his desired results.
Is this what we, as Christians, should believe? If you are a Christian who supported/supports Obama, is this what you voted for? Are you having second thoughts now? YOU SHOULD BE!!
The Everyday Christian 
You said: He is saying that it is okay to create and destroy these “clumps of cells” for the greater good that can come out of it. These humans beings are expendable in order to achieve his desired results.
These embryos are going to be destroyed regardless so they should be used to try to help people live better lives. They are not nor ever will become a human being.
Until people like yourself focus on banning the fertility clinics that produce these embryos for women who wait too long to get pregnant, you are just a hypocrite.
Our government and people who want to have babies are the ones that are saying it is OK to create and destroy these embryos. That includes plenty of Christians going to fertility clinics.
The bigger problem is that Christians know so little about this issue that they actually support what they are against. When Bush signed the ban on stem cells, he surrounded himself by kids produced from fertility clinics. The very cause of the problem.
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RA,
You said:
Why would you say these embryos are not human beings? They are human beings at the moment of conception. It is just silly to deny that fact. The fact that they are destroyed before they have a chance to develop does not in any way negate that they are human beings.
I agree with you in that the fertility clinics should not create the number of embryos they do. Creating more embryos than can be successfully implanted and brought to a complete pregnancy is irresponsible and maybe unethical.
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It is silly to affirm they are human beings at the moment of conception. I dought you’re words as you don’t sound like someone who even understands biology or related fields.
We cannot believe someone’s judgemente about a book just because he reads one page or stared at the cover. Your opinions should only carry weight to people who have grown a brain and critical thinking if you know the whole story, which you clearly do not.
Now that you have read one side (Bible) focus on the other side (scientific understanding). Try to fundament you’re claims of “humans are as such at the moment of conception”. I think it would rather be interesting in opposition to throw around values put in a book that was created in the Council of Nicea by… MEN (Constantine, Eusebious et al)
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Rogeriopfm,
You are bouncing all over the place. First, why is it “silly” to affirm that humans are humans at the moment of conception? The fact that I am not a biologist in no way discredits my assertion that life does begin at conception. It seems like we have had this discussion before. At what point do humans become human if not at conception? Any answer you give, other than at conception, will be arbitrary.
You said:
If you take this to its logical conclusion, then the only people we could ever listen to would be one who has perfect knowledge of a subject. In order to have perfect knowledge of any subject, the person would have to be God. As such, we can only listen to God. I have no problem with this but I bet you do.
Also, you need to do some research. God’s word existed long before the Council of Nicea. The myth you are perpetuating has been refuted successfully many times and the refutation is available all over the internet for you to search. If you have trouble finding it I will be happy to point you in the right direction.
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Well then, please do
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Why do so many christians fight for embryos but support war and the death penalty?
If given a choice I have to believe Jesus would have a lot more to say about war, etc. than embryos.
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child of god,
You said
You are trying to equate abortion with was and the death penalty? Are you serious? The murder of our unborn amounts to child sacrifice on the alter of self. You can’t equate that with the just application of the death penalty on those who deserve it.
War is not a good thing but it is sometimes a necessary thing for a whole host of possible reasons. Some reasons are valid and some are not. No matter the reason, it can’t be equated with the sacrifice of our unborn children.
If you don’t know, then you need to spend some more time reading His word. See for yourself what He says.
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First of all… there is little to no evidence that our government has the capacity to administer anything with any sense of justice… agreed?
There is tons of evidence that the death penalty is wildly unjust… plus war kills millions of children, born, and unborn throughout the world.
The issue is whether you and jesus value life… tom, good deacon, go read, go pray, go listen to your soul, your god, whatever it takes to have you value all life, not just the righteous.
…and those are his words.
p.s. please don’t quote king james, etc. in your next response… try speaking from your heart, not your head… try looking for your light, your love, and give up all your good reasons for war, death, fear, etc.
love you,
~child of god
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child of god,
You said
I readily agree that there is little that our government does well. It has proven, and continues to prove, that every day.
Having said that, we must also acknowledge that the justness of the death penalty does not reside in our governments ability, or lack thereof, but to administer it. It resides in God’s law given to us in the Bible. The same goes for war.
You said
Hmmm. Where did He say these things? If you will provide a reference I will go and re-read it.
First, there is none righteous according to Jesus. He says that all are sinners and deserve death in the final judgment. Jesus valued life so much that He came to die to provide it (eternal life) for His people. You can’t value life more than that.
Second, my opinions on this, or any matter, are irrelevant. Only what the Bible says matters. If my beliefs do not conform to its teachings then I am wrong and need to change my beliefs. We all need to compare what we believe with God’s word and conform to it. Otherwise, we can’t be in His will the way we should be.
You said
Interesting. When you say King James I assume you mean the Kings James Translation of the Bible. FWIW, I don’t use the KJV. I use the ESV.
I have no light, no love, or anything else without God giving it to me. Without Him, I was in utter darkness, a slave to my sinful nature. I was blinded by my own sinfulness. I was spiritually dead and destined for Hell. All unbelievers can be described this way. But when God frees us, we are brought into the light. He fills us with His love. He changes our nature. He prepares a place for us in Heaven. He becomes our LORD and we wish to serve Him only. If I speak anything other that what He says then I am sinning.
So you see, I am speaking from my heart. I have searched and reasoned out these positions. I did not have them before I was saved. It is not possible for me to speak any other way.
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If god’s hand enables our government, our wars, our bible, and our salvation… then why in god’s name do you think he isn’t behind our science?
Why do you think you get to know what god wants or how he fulfills on his plan?
I’d love to hear more about the “alter of self”…
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child of god,
You said:
I never claimed God was not behind our science. God is the creator of all things, including science. In fact, science should be about discovering as much as we can about what He has created. The problem with science though is that some people exalt it above God and seek to use it to negate God. When this happens they are at fault and we should never fail to point that out.
You asked:
This is a very good question but it has a very simple answer. He wrote it down for us. His word, the Bible, is given to all of us. I am not alone in being able to know God and His plans. We can all read the Bible but only those who have the Holy Spirit can truly understand it. The Bible does not include every detail about everything in creation because it was never intended to but it gives us enough to tell us what His plans are. It is sufficient for what we need. Which is to know Him.
You said:
When I use the phrase “alter of self” I am referring to those situations in which people will sacrifice other people or things in order to exalt themselves. Often it is done in order to avoid the consequences of our choices and actions. People put their comfort and their wants/desires/etc. above everything else even if the situation they face is their own doing. In the case of abortion, it refers to the fact that people will choose to murder the unborn baby simply because it is inconvenient. Any reason given for abortion can be reduced down to this basic argument. I hope this helps explain what I meant.
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I am enjoying this conversation, so let me summarize what I’ve learned…
The bible is incomplete, but sufficient to teach people who already have the Holy Spirit to know god’s plan and to know him.
The “alter of self” is a useful criticism for rape victims, but not soldiers or people who pay them to kill others in order to secure their own safety and freedom…
a.k.a. nationalism.
I’ll summarize again… you and your ilk use your interpretation of the bible to feel righteous when dominating, suppressing, killing, and going to war against people who do not agree with you.
Tom… your assertion that you “know” god… would be an admission of insanity in most circles and is at least an insult to your faith… if god is omnipotent and infinite then “knowing” is not an option.
Why do you fundamentalists always confuse knowing with faith? They’re opposites, not the same… knowledge is a very limiting perspective, faith is infinite.
I suspect god would rather you practice more faith and love and less knowing, condemning, etc.
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child of god,
Congratulations, you have skillfully and successfully twisted just about everything I have said.
I never said the Bible is incomplete. I said that it was not designed to be a book which contains all facts about every aspect of creation. It was designed as God’s revelation to us. It is perfect in that respect. It provides us with every detail that we need to know about God and to know Him as our personal LORD and Savior.
The “alter of self” is a useful criticism of anyone that places their own personal needs and desires above God. These people create a god in their image and then worship that god on the “alter of self”.
My claim to know God relies on the fact that God has revealed Himself to us in His word. The fact that I study His word and the fact that I have the Holy Spirit to guide me attest that I can know God, at least as far as He has revealed Himself to us. Knowing God is not just an option but is a command that He gives us.
God does not call us to a blind faith. Our faith should increase when we get to know more about Him. As we get closer and become more Christlike, our faith will grow. Knowledge increases faith, it does not limit it.
God commands us to practice faith, love, and to grow in our knowledge of Him. We can’t neglect any of these. These are all things that a growing Christian will seek to increase in their lives. God helps us in this. It is the process of sanctification.
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Knowledge increases faith?…
I believe our favorite book says differently. Didn’t god forbid adam and eve from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Isn’t that knowledge a sin against god? I hope you don’t believe that story is about two hippy nudists eating apples off of trees. That story is a warning against believing you can “know”…
Knowledge only disrupts learning, exploring, and discovery. I bet the moment you think you “know” your wife is the moment your relationship begins to take a dive… likewise, “knowing” god only limits your experience of faith, love, magic, etc.
god is infinite… stop trying to limit god with your knowledge… or yourself for that matter… or your wife… life, god, faith, love, etc. are all infinite capacities… knowledge is finite.
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You said:
Knowledge does increase our faith. How could it not be this way? Please share the verses where the Bible teaches that knowledge does not increase faith. The Bible actually directly commands us to grow in knowledge of the LORD. 2 Peter 3:15-18 says “(15) And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, (16) as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. (17) You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. (18) But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.” The book of Proverbs talks about knowledge throughout the whole book. Colossians 1:9-10 says “(9) And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, (10) so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.”
Growing in knowledge of our LORD is not something that hurts or limits our faith, it increases it. The more we know about God and the more we know God personally the more we trust Him by faith to do the things He has promised to do. This is a basic tenant of Christianity.
I do believe the book of Genesis completely. If it is not true then the foundation of the entire Bible is removed. It was written as a historical narrative so it is meant to be read as history not some allegory. Adam and Eve’s sin was not gaining knowledge, it was disobedience to the one command God had given them.
You said
This statement makes no sense to me. Please explain what you mean by this so I can understand your meaning.
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First of all, the etymology of the word “know” means “to have intercourse with”, which makes for a much more interesting interpretation of eve, the serpent, and her first son cain… but I don’t want to get into that…
Knowledge is not a thing you can have or not have… it is a belief. Beliefs are thoughts we’ve had so many times we no longer question them… they occur as true. TRUTH is perhaps the most limiting belief of all because once you know the truth about something or someone, you’re no longer exploring it from a beginners mind, but instead you’re looking for evidence to validate your belief.
That’s the difference between a question and an answer… only questions enable discovery.
Truth, beliefs, and knowing… are all needs of the ego. The ego desperately needs to know in order to predict and/or control the future. This need to know/control is the complete opposite of faith.
Faith gives up control and surrenders all knowledge to god.
As students of god, our job is to question, to study, and to explore… let god do the knowing.
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child of god,
You have only given one possible definition of know. Here is the full definition as given by Merriam-Webster
As you can see, there are more ways to define “know”. The definition you gave is listed as the archaic meaning. It also means to be aware of the truth, which you define as a “limiting belief”. Truth is defined this way (also by Merriam-Webster)
The definition that is relevant to our discussion here is the 2c. Here Truth is defined as that which has fidelity to an original. That is why Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life” in John 14:6. Jesus was telling us that He was equal in every way to God…that He was in fact God. Truth is not limiting. It allows us to move forward to the next concept. It does not in any way stifle discovery. It should motivate us to greater efforts of discovery as we seek more Truth (which is found with more knowledge).
You seem to be saying that God requires His followers to have a blind faith. If so, the god you are describing is not the God of the Bible. He commands faith but He also commands that we increase our knowledge of Him.
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I just noticed that both your quotes use this expression…
“knowledge of… lord/god”
which your ego has interpreted as… “my knowledge of god”
What if the bible is referring to “his knowledge”… What if you could grow in his grace and his knowledge?
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Context, Context, Context!!
Context determines meaning. Read the chapters that I have quoted from and you will understand the meaning. “What ifs” are irrelevant. All that matters is what does it say in context.
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Two really fascinating responses…
1) I’m wrong for using archaic defintions… while you’re right for using an archaic book.
2) You think the context of the words are in the text… context is in the frame of reference of the reader.
You will never learn or hear anything new if you aren’t willing to consider that you are the context of your experience.
You can never know god or anything else… at best you can discover your reflection on these thoughts and things.
The truth is relative. You can not possibly see or understand every facet of any truth…
Leave that to god.
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You said
Who said the Bible is an archaic book?
You said
Context is not set by the reader…it is set by the writer. Only the author has the right to set the meaning of what he writes. A text cannot mean something that it never meant. This means that we can’t have “living documents”. So as we study, we must seek to find the meaning assigned by the author.
You said
If truth is relative then there is no such thing as truth. Truth, by definition, is absolute not relative. God is the standard for all truth because all truth comes from Him. The fact that we can’t understand “every facet” of any truth does not negate truth. It is only a reflection on our finite minds.
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The archaic definition is newer than your book and your quote and thus it seems likely that applying your modern definition of “knowledge” is convenient at best.
Indeed… we agree… we can not know the truth… and thus faith is the best we’ve got… knowledge and truth are illusions in our context.
… and you are mistaken if you think you can ever understand my written words. Even if we spoke in person, understanding would be unlikely… and we are just two simple minds… so, why the heck do you think you can understand god’s words? Arrogance.
Tom, my friend, we’re not talking about god, religion, science or politics here… I’m talking to someone who believes they know the truth. To me, that is the most dangerous kind of person. Our prisons are full of fundamentalists who know the truth. Armies are full of them too. In fact, it is a prerequisite to violence.
You seem like wise, loving and peaceful guy… so, I implore you to stop worshiping your truth and start preaching the value of faith and uncertainty.
Faith, Grace, Love, Forgiveness are all available to those people who can give up certainty and just embrace not knowing for awhile.
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You said
I did not say that we can’t know truth. I said that we might not understand every aspect of truth but that does not negate truth. We CAN know truth. We are commanded to seek truth. God IS truth and we can know Him.
You said
If I can’t understand your words, I assume that means that you could not understand my words either. If either, or both, is the case then how are we having this discussion.
You said
I believe that God is truth and that by getting to know Him, He will show me the truth. In fact the Bible tells us that the truth will set us free. Free from what, you might ask. Free from the bondage of sin in this world and freedom to seek God with all our hearts.
You said
These things are available only to those whom God gives them. The things you list are all fruits of the spirit (see Galatians 5:22-23) and are gifts from God. You can’t get them any other way.
Question: What philosophy do you follow? Parts of it seem familiar but I can’t seem to quite put my finger on it.
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I follow as many philosophies and theologies as I can… I love learning. I worship the unknown and the unknowable. I believe your god is there too.
I believe “knowledge” is a veil created by fear.
I believe the key difference between the east and the west is that the tribes of abraham worship “judgement”, while the east and (it seems) most of the indigenous cultures that were destroyed by the tribes of abraham all worship various forms of “accepting the unknown”… these cultures have more peace, love and magic in my view.
The quest for knowledge is a fantastic thing… thinking you’ve found it is dangerous.
I believe your scriptures are encouraging the quest, not the certainty.
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child of god,
You said
This explains a lot. It appears as if you have created a philosophical and theological buffet from which you pick and choose the things you like and discard the things you don’t. The problem is that basic Christianity is an all or nothing proposition. You either accept all of it or you are lost. You can’t include it in your buffet. The god you worship is not the God of the Bible.
I am not trying to be offensive here so please don’t take it that way. I am simply trying to explain to you a basic tenant of Christianity. In fact, one of the Ten Commandments actually says that we shall have no other god in place of the God of the Bible. A Christian must reject all other religions and philosophies because there can only be one God and He is the God of the Bible. Our quest for knowledge brings us back to Him. Anything less and we have missed the mark.
I encourage you to consider these things and compare what you have created with the truth as explained in the Bible. If you do, you will be come to a crisis of faith…then you will have to turn to God or reject Him. There is no middle ground.
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Hilarious… I’m trying to get you out of your black and white, all or nothing mindset… and you’re trying to get me into it.
I’m the guy who loves the spring… I always welcome the 7th dayers, the mormon boys, and the jehova witnesses into my house. They come every spring.
I always start the conversation this way… “Welcome… you want to share the truth with me, right? …and you believe you have answers that you’d like me to have too, right? Right. My goal is for you to leave with more questions than you have now. Okay?” … and then we start… so far, I’ve yet to be saved or become a mormon or a witness, etc. and they usually leave scratching their heads.
For me, that feels like a victory for god, love, peace, etc.
Shall we play?
First question… if you know the truth then tell me how to derive “the truth” without using the truth. In other words, give me a logical statement, an equation, or scripture that says something like T = x + y and not T = some function of T… in other words, you can’t use the Truth to derive the Truth. For example, your ilk usually says something like “the Bible is true because it says so”… I hope you see the absurdity in that argument. …and yes, I’m guessing you have no issue with it, but you have got to know that it can’t work with non-believers.
If you don’t want to deal with that question, how about this one… What’s the difference between a soul and a person? … and does your soul have a personality? Once I know your answer, I’ll know how to ask the next question… so? Is your soul a person? Does it have an identity? An ego?
I have many, many more…
Also, my quest for god is not a buffet and is not remotely inconsistent with your scripture that says you should study god. I’ll bet god wants you to study other religions. I’m pretty sure jesus studied buddhism too. Your instant knowledge of me is extremely righteous and arrogant.
I’m not insulted, just inspired to make a difference with you.
You will get out of your fragile black and white world and begin to see every spectrum of god/love soon.
I promise.
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Pingback: Open Discussion: Seeking Knowledge of God vs. Worshipping the Unknown and Unknowable « The Everyday Christian
I have created an new post to continue this discussion because we have gone very far off topic of this original post.
The new post is called Open Discussion: Seeking Knowledge of God vs. Worshipping the Unknown and Unknowable. I will respond to your last comment in the new post.
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Is it a tragedy when an embryo spontaneously does not further it’s development which is often to occur?
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What silly flapdoodle.
Here are a few of the things government gets right most of the time, sometimes millions of times a day:
Social Security checks
Coast Guard rescues
Fire fighting
Garbage pickup
School crossing guarding
Pell Grants
Stafford Grants
College education
Most undergraduate education, especially considering the democratic nature of it
Food safety, most of the time
National Parks
National Institutes of Health (NIH)
Highways
Mail delivery
Airport safety
Air traffic safety
The Smithsonian Air & Space Museum
The Bureau of Printing and Engraving’s printing of money
Clean Water
Clearer air
National Forest campgrounds
NOAA
Hurricane prediction
Weather tracking
Volcano monitoring (in spades!)
Timekeeping
Regulation of radio spectra used by cell phones
Improving sewage treatment and handling
Voting
Here in Texas, even the Department of Motor Vehicles works with astounding efficiency most of the time.
Most functions of government work well. Most errors are well below usual levels of error tolerance for highly-efficient organizations.
Quit being so cynical.
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